Cold Truths From The Mountain

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Dear listeners, here is something like most business looks kind of in their books. Won't tell it. The I mean like the mountain doesn't care about your strategy deck, right? And I mean it doesn't care about your title, your track, record, or I'd say how many uh podcasts you have been, right? The mountain just shows you exactly I mean who you are under that pressure. I mean, I'm pressure, right? So under that pressure, it will show you like exactly who you are. And obviously in the cold, when the route gets harder than you planned, and turning back isn't kind of option. And that's precisely why the lessons from the mountain are so I'd say, and I mean one of the most honest lessons in business and the leadership that actually exists. And today we are talking about that only, and we're trying to crank there as well. So so I hear dear listeners, welcome back to another powerful episode of Mind Meets Machine. I'm your host, Avek and today we are exploring leadership and business through one of the most powerful and unconventional kind of lens, I'd say, that I have come across mountaineering. Mountaineering. So, I mean, not a kind of metaphor, but the physical, real, uh, and the lived teacher. And if you if you if you lead something, build something, or uh maybe you are trying uh to grow through some real pressure, then this is the conversation is for you. Yeah. And in this, I have a very lovely guest with us who lives in this exact intersection. Please welcome my guest, Dr. Sheena Clancy. So welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_00 1:34

Oh, thank you. I'm so glad to be here, back on the mic with you, and I'm really looking forward to the conversation today. Hopefully, add some value to your audience.

SPEAKER_01 1:44

Exactly. Definitely, and thank you so much for joining us today. And like, dear listeners, like before we uh get into the discussion in more details, I'll quickly look for this with Dr. Sheena. So, Dr. Sheena is number one international best-selling author, forensic nurse, yes, a business strategist, executive coach, and the creator of Mountaineering Mindset Academy. And she's an actual mountaineer who's been uh scaling peaks and ice climbing zones as well in 2015, I guess. Since 2015.

SPEAKER_00 2:12

Well, yeah, since 2013.

SPEAKER_01 2:14

Yeah. Yeah. And DLS is like she helps executives, workers, and purpose-driven organizations shatter the limiting beliefs and reach the peaks of their own possibly or possibility. So there are a lot of things to discuss today. So let's get into the discussion. I will not take much of time. Welcome to the show again.

SPEAKER_00 2:33

Thank you, thank you. And I love how you uh how you brought up the mountaineering and how that will tie into our conversation for sure, because it is very unconventional, which is I think I'm the only one that's maybe doing it. Which is why I was like, I saw this kind of unique gap in putting my pieces together at the intersection. And we'll roll with it.

SPEAKER_01 2:53

Exactly. Yeah,

Why Mountaineering Beats Business Books

SPEAKER_01 2:54

definitely. I mean, uh start kind of a bit different way. Let's start with something that makes the approach genuinely unique. Mountaineering mindset. I mean, I'm really loving these two words. Mountaineering mindset is is not a kind of metaphor. You actually climb mountains and you are uh you ice climb. So uh you have been on obviously the real terrain in real conditions. So when you take those lessons, yeah. So when you take those lessons into a boardroom or maybe with in front of a executive, founder, or kind of coaching session, what do leaders and entrepreneurs most need to understand about what the mountain actually teaches that no other uh business books or something can Yeah, the mountain absolutely teaches that you should be on it or you should not be on it. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 3:46

Sometimes reaching the peak is not the destination. Maybe we were not designed to reach that peak. Not because we're not physically or mentally capable, but maybe the lesson that we needed was not at the peak. Maybe it was on the way, or depending how far we scaled, maybe it's on the way down. When, you know, coaching and doing trainings for executives and different, you know, Fortune 500 companies and with clients, it's really tying those those intricate pieces together about teamwork, cohesiveness, the you know, kind of the lifeline, right? There's a lifeline thread that goes through the company, and that's what the rope is, is that lifeline. And sometimes conditions will force you to turn back, even though a decision sounds like the best decision. The decision really isn't the one that needs to be made. And so, like in mountaineering, that might be altitude sickness. You literally cannot continue when you get altitude sickness. Like you need to get down and down pretty quickly because you're losing oxygen and it's very much tied into business, yes.

SPEAKER_01 4:58

True, true. And I totally agree with you because what happened is because I mean, from from us from India, Nepal is very, very, very nearby, like Mount Everest and all the highest peaks. So also we have one more range. I mean, it's uh like Ladakh, right? Ladakh is also the place which is very, very high. Oxygen level is like, I mean, if someone is not from the mountains, they won't be able to uh get into it. I mean, it's it's very, very thin layer of oxygen. So I remember one of my so there is a a bikers group also. So one of my friend and the groups together, they went there and so I was not a part of that, but they went there and one of them was a smoker, right? And what happened like normal, it was it is fine, everything was fine. But at certain level, it was like he was like, I can't go beyond this because I cannot breathe. And then there was such a condition that it was too far. Suppose this is the this is the height where they were, and the camp, maybe you can see here the support camp, the medical camp, which is there. Yeah, from here, yeah, from here to here, they it's a it's a huge range and it will be too time-taking. So somehow uh they uh brought here and his life got saved. I mean it's it's too too difficult. I mean, sometimes it's really correct that whether you should climb or not climb, whether you should take that or not, it's it's it's our decision-making idea.

SPEAKER_00 6:23

Yeah, yeah. Well, thank goodness that he was able to be, you know, taken down and get the help that he needed. But that's you know, a great example of knowing our limits and what we do to prepare, right? We're only as good as our toe belt in our preparation.

SPEAKER_01 6:41

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 6:42

But the lesson, the lesson there, I don't want to speak for somebody else, but you know, there's a lesson for everybody to learn there.

SPEAKER_01 6:48

Very true, very true. So, so like, I mean, in this context only, like when the when a high achieving leader encounters the mountain mindset for the first time, maybe. So,

Mindset Is Not Fluff

SPEAKER_01 6:59

what tends to crack open for them?

SPEAKER_00 7:01

The crack really starts with why does mindset matter? Because when you're talking these big organizations, I mean, they don't even have to be big, right? So you have these C level and executives where mindset is is oftentimes considered like a fluff word. Like, that's nice. Let's tie a little bow on it. And, you know, we don't really need to talk about that. But I think what executives and people who are making decisions tend to realize after having this conversation and just, you know, listening to some trainings or some coaching is that their organization is only as strong as the people in it, right? And so that really has to take into account mindset. If people are showing up, their best selves, same with executives, that is a mindset component. And you can have the worst day ever. But it's almost like you go to Disney World or you watch a movie, like you have to instantly flip the script, right? You have to change that mindset to be on performance. But if that mindset piece isn't there, like I was saying, the ROI return on investment is not going to be what it could be because everybody is coming to the table at a lower level of performance than they could.

SPEAKER_01 8:16

Exactly. Exactly. So, okay, I mean, obviously it's uh it's uh something that in what you said about the mountain being an honest mirror, that I definitely love it. And yeah, I think that's exactly the kind of honest feedback most high performers never get. So that's very true.

SPEAKER_00 8:33

Absolutely. I mean, we don't I'm type A. I'm the same. And so, you know, and you, you know, we're in different time zones. You're up late doing this. So absolutely, it's that dedication. And we don't always, I can only speak for myself. I don't always want to be told like my mindset isn't right. Like, who's somebody to say that? And so it's not, it's not an approach where I'm like, you need to change your mindset because most people don't even realize that that is a component of them that may be holding them back. So it's really just having that dialogue and seeing what what their goals are and then putting together the really tailored component of it of where they are and where they want to be. And oftentimes what is uncovered without even saying it is mindset. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 9:21

Exactly true.

The Real Pattern Behind Limiting Beliefs

SPEAKER_01 9:22

So if we just go a bit deeper, because I think this is where the real work lives. So you help people shatter limiting beliefs and you named the specific ones as well, like the imposter syndrome, fear, past mistakes as well. So, in your experience working with the executives and the business leaders, what is the deeper pattern under those limits? Uh like I mean the belief that most commonly keeps talented and capable people from skating the peaks that they are actually capable of teaching.

SPEAKER_00 9:52

Yes. I feel like limiting beliefs, but that's also a very overused word anymore. It's more like that internal dialogue, right? And so having that discussion of okay, what is really holding me back? Is it, say somebody wants to go get a further education? Is it financial? Is it, I'm not really sure that that's what I want to do or invest my time in because right time is our most valuable asset that we have. And then is it, well, maybe I need to shadow a little bit or look at a mentor and see, hey, is this a path that I really want to take? And when you peel back those layers, it's really interesting how different people across the spectrum have different limiting beliefs, but they all have the same at the same time. And a lot of that is that imposter syndrome that you had mentioned and thinking, you know, I'm not capable. I'm not able. And there's a there's an opposite to people being fearful of failure. And I use that word lightly because I think there's always a lesson to learn in what's considered a failure. You don't fail unless you don't take action from learning something. But there's also a flip side to that. People can also be afraid of success, because with success comes a higher level of responsibility, not only for oneself, but the people around them. And I think that's the piece that's often missed. And when the people you know I work with or organizations really think about that, it gives the opportunity to explore the why, because that is usually accompanied by limiting beliefs or some kind of traumatic event where that person was in a place of leadership, something may have happened, and maybe they're like, I don't know if I want to risk that again.

Falling Ten Times And Continuing

SPEAKER_01 11:42

So, so like, and was there a moment on an actual mountain where you uh came face to face with your own limiting beliefs?

SPEAKER_00 11:50

No, the first time, this is wild. The very first time that I did any rock climbing, like ever considered doing this, right? So 2015, there was, I was just rock climbing. It wasn't anything huge, right? Because you gotta I had to start small. You can't just climb the whole mountain, which is also part of the concept here. And there was this little overhang. When you look at it, it's the smallest overhang. And when I got to that part, it was just enough that it was you had to climb under it to get over it. And that is so physically demanding. But when you're looking at it, you're like, oh, this will be easy. I fell probably a good 10 times. I'm on a rope, but I fell backwards. I fell, I couldn't get my grip, I couldn't get my footing. And I was like, this is very difficult. And I got to the point, I'm also competitive. I was like, we're gonna do this. I'm going to get over this. I don't know how, but I'm gonna do my best. And so, like, my muscles were probably depleted of oxygen. They were to the point of anaerobic, I'm sure, because they were so tired. But when I started saying to myself, I can do this, I will do this, and got my footing, I got up over it and just the reward in that alone, sticking to the dedication was so rewarding. I didn't even care if I made it to the top. I was like, I'm pretty sure I just beat the hardest part on this climb. And that was the mental part that I beat. And to me, that was more important. It was so challenging. I did make it up. You know, I had to take a little bit of a rest before I kept going. You know, I made it, but it was the middle of the climb that really was going to be the determining factor whether I was going to continue scaling or I was gonna have to, you know, descend and consider, you know, maybe we'll try it again later. I'm not, I don't have the the tools and I'm not prepared enough to do it.

unknown 13:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:53

But it was the mindset piece. I'd also actually, I'd say the first time I went ice climbing. Ice climbing is wild. So for your listeners, if they're not familiar with it, you have like you have axes, you have picks, you have like cramp-ons, you have everything because you need to be able to penetrate that ice. Like you need to be able to kick it as hard as you can to get your foot in there, or else you don't you don't have any grip. Oh, it's just that cramp-on in the ice. That's it. Yes, you're on a rope, but I remember kicking the ice and I get cold really easy. So the fact that I was ice climbing, I was freezing my face off to begin with. And my toes were already starting to go like numb because I was so cold. But when I realized like I have got to kick harder into that ice because that was the stabilizing factor, and that was going to give me the foothold to take my pickaxe and hit up higher. Because I don't want to go up on my arms. If I'm if I'm shooting way up here, I'm using all this to pull up. I want to pull push up, which is gonna leverage everything. So that was one of the most challenging parts. The first time doing that was trying to get the rhythm down on top of the mindset, but also the external factors of it being freezing cold.

SPEAKER_01 15:09

So, and uh, that's amazing. That's amazing. So I definitely want to.

SPEAKER_00 15:13

Are you ready to go ice climbing? You ready to come? I got two sets of everything.

SPEAKER_01 15:17

I want it definitely. Yeah, because uh, I mean, it it happens like this, like nearest to the church and farthest to the god. It's right, right? So I'm here near to Nepal, but uh see, I'm not able to go there.

SPEAKER_00 15:30

I mean, I don't I don't blame you. I some I sometimes people are like, well, what's your title, right? And I'm like, when it comes to this, I'm like your Sherpa, but I know what a Sherpa really does, right? And they they are extremely trained in that. Like they're your lifeline, right? They know the lay of the land in and out. And I do too in a almost metaphorical capacity in real life, but nothing like Nepal. You know, that's that's do or die. You have Sherpas are amazing.

SPEAKER_01 16:01

Exactly. Sharpas are also very fearless, and they exactly know like the situations when it will turn, where you have to get down so that you always stay out of trouble. And it's always, I mean, always the best. Because it is also said that when you are going to a mountain, always we always say that when you are going to a mountain, two things definitely you should be always following. Do not ride yourself, always hire a driver who is from that place, from that mountain, because they know how to drive rather than others who are normal people, or maybe the experienced driver as well. Because mountains are something which needs a separate capability, skills. And when you are climbing a mountain, always go for sharpas.

SPEAKER_00 16:49

Always go with sharpas, you said, absolutely. And Nepal, absolutely. I would never go with not go with that one. I have a friend who actually he climbed. Boy, I'm just I just totally drew blank. I can picture the I can picture the mountain. I'll have to come back to it in a circle, but it's one of the like very deadly ones, and he did it by himself. He wasn't even with a partner, he did it completely by himself, and that's who trained me in mountaineering. So I'm very thankful and blessed to be trained by somebody who is very, very skilled. I mean, 70 years old, still climbing mountains like it's nothing. That says a lot.

SPEAKER_01 17:24

You said 70?

SPEAKER_00 17:25

Yes. And he's fast. He's so fast. He should be a Sherpa, without a doubt.

SPEAKER_01 17:31

I mean, yeah, obviously it's an experience also, but that's interesting.

SPEAKER_00 17:36

If you

Base Camp Thinking And Scaling Backwards

SPEAKER_00 17:37

have to give one advice today to the listeners who are listening right now, what that's I would say some solid advice in regards to like the mountaineering mindset, since that's like what we're covering today, would be you've got to start somewhere. There's a base camp for some reason. Every reason. Every mountain has a base camp, right? Yeah. And we still have to have the tools and do the footwork before we get to that base camp. But base camp is critical in in each location because everybody at that base camp, when you're talking to locals, that's really how you learn. You almost want to go hang out at base camp, right? Because there's people from all over the place. But like you don't know how skilled they are, how skilled they are not. But when you talk to locals, you get a much better perception and perspective on, you know, maybe this route, maybe not the best. This route a lot of people use, or hey, this route is really popular. And if you're a fast climber, you might not want to take that route because you might get, you know, stuck in the line behind somebody. And maybe that's not, you know, the path that you're looking to take for that day for that challenge. So, you know, I say figure out what the goal is. And I always say scale it backwards, even in business. A lot of people will say, like, hey, I want to do this. Okay, I need this many clients, or I need this many, you know, engagements, I need this many of this. And then it's like you're just throwing a calculator at the wall and you're like, okay, that's that's the figure we're going with. Oh, you want to pick your figure and scale it backwards. So it's the same concept.

SPEAKER_01 19:10

True, true, very true.

The Power Of The Pause

SPEAKER_01 19:12

One one more thing is like, here's the part that nobody puts or talk about the summit attempts that don't work. The hard stretch where everything is in the I mean in the business goes sideways and where the old limiting beliefs come back, where the leader questions everything that they thought they would figure out. So, and you have been on the mountains in those moments. So, how do you stay with it and keep climbing when it feels like you have just lost your room?

SPEAKER_00 19:43

Oh, that's a that's a loaded question. I think there's kind of two pieces to that that we could peel back on. When it comes to how do you keep going when everything is like pushing against you? I tend to stop and evaluate because the power of the pause is really, really crucial. What is it that's holding me back? Is it the weather? You don't want to mess with Mother Nature, right? So is that what is that something that's holding me back? And I need to pivot from. And just like you had mentioned, you know, Sherpa's being very skilled on how to stay out of potential adverse events happening. Maybe it's one side, maybe it's the you know, north side or the east side that is projected to have like more snow on it or foggier. So, hey, we've got to detour and take this different route. But if it's a complete like dead stop that you cannot, it's respecting not only the mountain, the journey, but respecting the capability to have the insight to know when and when not to keep pressing forward. And on the second piece of that, it's just like business. I actually was talking to, I met a lady, I've never met anybody that does this, but she liquidates companies, accountant by trade, so is CPA, but currently is working in a role as a liquidator. And I was like, tell me more about that. Like, what does that look like? And obviously, when somebody gets to the point of needing to liquidate and sell off their assets, you're unfortunately past that threshold. And so this is where when I look at the mountaineering mindset and I look at scaling, there's usually some signs beforehand before you need to make that hard decision. And if you're talking business, it could be morally, ethically, you know, any kind of thing like that, or just looking out for the betterment of the company. You know, it coincides with the mountaineering piece. But if we don't recognize what those signs are ahead of time and seek mentorship or consult with other experts, because even at a high-level leadership, we can't know it all. That's why we have to surround ourselves with experts that we can defer to and collaborate with. And so maybe some of those companies wouldn't be liquidated if executives were comfortable enough to consult with somebody beforehand. But that brings a whole realm of vulnerability that often people don't want to explore. Because then it then with it comes accountability too.

SPEAKER_01 22:23

Very true. That's interesting. Yeah. Yeah.

When Leadership Gets Lonely

SPEAKER_01 22:26

And definitely, like, would you say to a, I mean, what would you say to a leader who's just in one of those dark valleys right now, who feels like they have run out of time?

SPEAKER_00 22:36

Well, start that off, being at the higher level, it is lonelier because there's only so much, you know, information that you can let down through your subordinates. And so that alone and of itself can be discouraging. And so to say to somebody that's feeling like they're on the brink of, do I keep moving forward with this business? Or what does this look like? Reach out to somebody that you confide in. Like for me, if I'm going through something like that, you know, everybody has business acumens where it's like, you want to seek counsel on. And I would say do that as soon as like that tug says, or higher power or whatever it is, like the numbers say, hey, maybe we should consult an expert to come in and just do an evaluation. It feels invasive, but the outcome will be much better if the recommendations are able to be implemented and sustainable.

How To Connect With Dr. Clancy

SPEAKER_00 23:33

Easy.

SPEAKER_01 23:34

So if listeners want to connect with you, what would you get me able to connect?

SPEAKER_00 23:37

I'm sure you will put my web dress, web dress website in the show notes below, and hopefully all of my socials, because my name is spelled very uniquely. So it's ShaynaClancy.com. Yeah. But to spell it out would be, you know, probably take another 20 minutes of your show. So just check the show notes. But for real, I would love to connect with anybody that finds value in this or that I can add value to.

SPEAKER_01 24:05

Exactly. Exactly. So, yeah, listeners, what I'll do is I'll just make your life easier. I'll just put all those details, links, name, everything into the show notes. Uh, so you can easily reach out to Dr. Sheena. And Dr. Sheena, thank you so much. There are not many people who can bring the ice picks and boardroom strategy into the same conversation and make it feel completely na natural and obviously which is very, very relatable as well. Because I was able to relate with my things which I share. Uh I mean that's a rare gift. And I think a lot of leaders are going to climb differently after tonight. Tonight, by my where I am right now, it's night. It's 10:30 p.m. right now. So for uh someone it will be day or morning. Definitely.

Name The Belief That Shows Up

SPEAKER_01 24:48

Everyone who is listening, or maybe you'll be listening later as well, wherever you are in your business or maybe in your leadership right now, just ask yourself this thing that what is the one limiting belief that keeps showing you up on the hardest days? Just name it. Don't fight for it or don't fight it with. Just name it. Because on the mountain, you have to see the trend before you can navigate it. So that's where the climb changes. With this hope, this is your host, Eric, and this is my mate's machine. And I'll see you next time in the next episode. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_00 25:19

Thank you.