When Old Patterns Return

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Dear listeners, you know like that feeling when you think you have dealt with something, moved past it, processed it, only to have it show up again in a different form. Maybe I'd say it's the same argument with a different person. The same tension in your body when certain things happen, the same loop you thought you did broken. Right. Trauma doesn't announce itself with the clarity. It whispers through the patterns that we barely notice until we are I mean standing in the middle of them again, right? So welcome back to another powerful episode of Mind Meets Machine. I'm your host, Avake, and this is a space where we slow down enough to notice what's actually happening beneath the surface of our lives, our minds, the systems that we build, and the ones that build us. And today I'm joined by a very lovely guest. Please welcome Jacob Moduk. Welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_02 0:55

Thank you very much for having me. I really appreciate the uh the invitation. So it's lovely to be here and and share and yeah, just talk about mind meets machine, nirvana meets samsara, and the interrelation between the two and all the rest of it. So yeah, I love I love the title. I'm already getting a bit uh like my sort of metaphorical philosophical

Defining Trauma As Unprocessed Memory

SPEAKER_02 1:16

uh thoughts are bouncing around as a result of it.

SPEAKER_00 1:19

Exactly, exactly. I mean I mean I'm really happy that you are here today. And I mean before we uh get into the discussion, I'll quickly love to introduce it to all the listeners. So Yaristos like Jacob is a holistic health practitioner trained by and part of the Czech Institute, C-H-E-K, and the founder of the Trauma Healed Online Coaching Program, and someone who describes himself simply as a person who has worked through his own healing journey and come through it. Right. So I don't want to take much of your time to listen. Let's get started. So, Jacob, like, I mean, there's this idea that the trauma is something which is very dramatic, something obvious, something that only happens to certain people in certain situations. So, on that perspective, what's the most common misconception that you feel that uh you run into about what trauma actually is?

SPEAKER_02 2:13

Well, first the the first thing I would say is it's kind of got this sort of ethereal connotation. Like I don't I haven't heard a lot of people really try and sort of define it in a in a way that makes sense. And the reason why I bring that up is because for any issue that one is trying to address, from trying to rewire an electrical appliance to fixing a car tire to human health or whatever, if we don't actually know what actually the we don't know what the issue actually is, and we can actually understand it and define it to a degree, well, then we don't actually know what kind of tools we'll need to actually address it because we don't know its nature. So the first thing in terms of like misconception, I wouldn't even say it's a misconception, is like I haven't really heard people up like fully understand it. In my in from from what I've seen, which I don't say judgmentally, because especially things that are intangible, it's just harder because they don't have like an objective form. Now, the medical system can use that word trauma in a very tangible sense, like someone breaks their arm and then they a doctor could say there's trauma to the surrounding tissues of the original injury point or whatever whatever terminology they would use. But for this context, talking about the intangible aspects, the first thing is to actually know what you're dealing with. And and from that, I would say that it's understanding that to quote Dr. Keith Whitt, who's an integral psychotherapist, someone who I study a lot.

SPEAKER_01 3:52

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 3:54

Uh he's also one of Paul Czech's friends, Paul Check, the founder of the Jack Institute. But Dr. Keith Whitt says trauma essentially is a form of memory. So what that essentially means is it's a painful memory that has not been fully brought in consciously and understood and loved, and a coherent narrative created through it. And when I was asking myself, like, what actually is trauma? Oftentimes the answer is actually hidden in the word. So trauma as an acronym, uh, as I understand it, this is what I came up with, stands for to reject an unpleasant memory assertively. So what that means is there's the the memory, because as it be being a form of memory, is being held away assertively from consciousness. And the degree to which something's held away and not brought into consciousness, it still holds its charge and remains not understood. And the degree to which something remain a memory remains not understood is the degree to which it still can be distressing. So an analogy that I use for this is if you have a young child and they're they burn their finger cooking for the first time, their reaction could be quite extreme.

SPEAKER_01 5:05

Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 5:06

Like they don't they've never they they don't understand what's going on. They've never understood it before. They don't know if the finger's gonna fall off, they don't know if they're gonna die. They're like, oh my god, this hurts so much. What's going on? But then the mum comes along and is like, what happened, what happened? My finger, my finger. Okay, you burnt your finger. Is my finger gonna fall off? Am I gonna die? No, your finger's not gonna fall off, you're not going to die. Yeah, that thing gets hot, you need to be aware of that. We're gonna run it under some cold water, it will be sore for a few days. I'll kiss it better, I'll give you a cuddle, we'll put some cream on it, you'll be okay. If that mother burns her finger in exactly the same way, their reaction's not going to be the same. So, what principle do we see here? It's the level of comprehension that one has of that particular incident. How how did how did it happen? What does it mean for me? How do I deal with it? What does it mean for me afterwards? What awareness do I have afterwards? What lesson did I learn? All of those things the mother has comp full comprehension of, but the child doesn't. The degree to which those things are not understood is the degree to which that memory stays charged. Now that principle applies for everything, and it's not to diminish or den or or trivialize the sheer in intense challenge of certain traumatic experiences such as abuse to various degrees or just or take take your pick of something horrible that someone goes through. But that principle fully applies. So essentially, trauma at its trauma at its core, and this is half of the definition, is a form of memory that's not fully brought in consciously and understood fully through that whole thing and brought to a resolution of this is the lesson I learned and this is how I can bring it forward in my own life and share with and share with the w with the world.

The Statue Under The Mud

SPEAKER_02 6:50

So that's the first part, and then the second part, which gets a little bit more towards the like touching more on on Nirvana, is trauma essentially is not the truth of who we are. Trauma essentially is the embodied residue on the outside of the truth of who we are. So that's a that's a misconception that I do see tangibly, is people defining themselves by what happened. And so the analogy for that is if you imagine a beautiful statue, and for some people they instantly think of Michelangelo's David or another statue from the Renaissance, just something just utterly timeless in how m in how magnificent a work of art it is. Now, if you imagine that statue and you just cover it with mud, you just keep covering it more and more and more and more and more and more, even to the point where you can't see any of that statue anymore. All you see is mud. And then I asked the question: does it stop being a beautiful statue at its core? The answer to that is no. And then the question from that is what is the truth of who we are? The truth of who we are is we are a unique soul here. We are a soul standing for source of unconditional love, as Carl Jung described it. Each soul is each person's unique and individual and individuated aspect of God, source, the divine, take your pick, the Tao, whichever terminology you want to use. And a lot of the times, if P if if that aspect, that that more samsaric, no nirvanic, sorry, nirvanic aspect of the truth of who we are is not interwoven into the trauma healing process, it's a lot easier and seamless for the ego to start defining itself by the residue on the outside, like someone experienced abuse, or I am now this broken person, I am this, I am that, da-da-da. Their ego is just seeing the residue on the outside, and that is when it feels that's the only time the ego will ever feel constricted, no matter what happens. And so when the when that truth is fully anchored in, the ego, regardless of what happens, when it really anchors to that soulful truth and knows that it's there. And again, I'm being quite general, and there's lots of nuances interwoven into this as well. Regardless of what happens, it will never feel hopeless because it's it will tangibly feel that loving truth. So that would be a misconception. Define one defining themselves as what happened and feeling as a result of that of that suboptimal false definition, thinking that I am forever like this, so I'll never be free of it. So all I have all I can do is manage it, and thinking that it's hopeless. So that's a misconception that it's hopeless and that I am forever stained by this. That is a lie. And it's and it's not it's not a and it's a it just comes from just sometimes the ego just not knowing that that beautiful statue exists because it's never seen it before. And what I mean by that, what I mean by that is there's always a moment where one's brain has matured to a level where they're able to be self-conscious of themselves, usually around 13, 14. And but sometimes all of this trauma happens way before that age. So way but way before their brain has even developed the cognitive neurobiological capacity to have a thought of is this even true? And so they have to, this they have to, that memory has to be a traumatic one because it has to get pushed away because their brain can't even go through the process. And so all of that mud is on the outside of their beautiful statue. And the the first time that they're aware of themselves and able to actually look in the mirror and see themselves, all they see is mud. So they think that mud's the only thing that exists, and so they've never actually seen the beautiful statue, so they don't even know to look for it. And then that's when someone such as myself or another, there's so there's so many other wonderful, special, beautiful beings doing this similar kind of work that offering those suboptimals, suboptimal, those different perspectives to talk to that person and them saying, like, this happened to me in forever, like this, it's just this it's hopeless, da-da-da. And then someone like me or another person just being like, I understand, but it's not true, and I'll tell you why. And then they just get a different perspective, and then they're then they're able to actually say that's actually there, and they can actually start looking for it as well. So, yeah, that would be slightly slightly long-winded for your an initial question, but that would be a main misconception that it's this is just who I am now. I'm it's hopeless, I'm forever

Pain Versus Suffering And Avoidance

SPEAKER_02 11:25

like this, and I can only just manage it, and it'll never go over it.

SPEAKER_00 11:28

Wow, that's I'd say that's amazing. I mean, I mean, thank you so much for sharing in in more detailed way. It it is it is really interesting, like how we have been taught to measure suffering by the kind of comparison.

SPEAKER_02 11:42

As if like suffering and pain are two different things.

SPEAKER_00 11:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:46

Suffering as Ken Wilbur defines it, uh the founder of integral theory. Suffering equals pain plus avoidance.

SPEAKER_01 11:55

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 11:56

So if something painful comes up and you avoid it, you're gonna suffer. So by that by that, you can choose to not avoid it and you won't suffer. Pain's coming one way or another, but pain as an acronym stands for prompting attention in the now. So, as one of my teachers said, it's like a finger prodding you in the present moment to be aware of something. So if you don't avoid that, you can actually grow really quickly.

SPEAKER_01 12:19

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 12:19

But if people aren't aware of that, then they can get caught on that hamster wheel of suffering, and the ego identifying itself with the residue on the outside does cause that hamster wheel of suffering. Because they're they're avoid they're avoiding it again, not saying this judgmentally. They sometimes people just they haven't been exposed to this perspective that that's a possibility for them to even think about. So full compassion for that. I'm not saying this judgmentally in any way, shape, or form. I'm saying this in a uh encouraging way. Like there's a there's a it doesn't have to be like that. And so no, I'm not shaming anybody or saying anybody's wrong if they found them find themselves in that place. Because I've 100% been there before. That's how I came about, understood this stuff. I was there and I was like, oh my god, what's going on? How do I deal with this? And then I came across the answers eventually. Yeah, people really can get caught in that. But that when the ego just identifies with the residue, that's when a that's when that suffering feeling comes in because there's that avoidance there. There's the pain, but there's the avoidance because they're not getting to the root of it, and then that's what keeps them on that kind of hamster wheel, and then they f that's when they feel like there's whatever they do is not working or something like that. I agree. I agree.

SPEAKER_00 13:33

And it's really it's really amazing. But I also uh love to ask you all from our daily life, I mean everyday part, what does the unresolved trauma actually look like when someone's just moving through their day? Not in a kind of therapy session, not in a kind of crisis also, but just existing. So what do what do you say?

SPEAKER_02 13:54

It definitely depends on what the sort of tr traumatic experience was, because um depending on what it was will generally influence which areas it comes up in.

unknown 14:04

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 14:04

And I can give some specific examples if you want, but to speak fairly generally, what the

How Trauma Shapes Daily Reactions

SPEAKER_02 14:10

main thing I'll say is it's whatever traumatic experiences someone has had, that will shape their perceptions of something. And one's perception of something will influence how they respond to something that their brain deter their mind determines. Oh, I've seen that before, that means this is coming. So to stop that from happening, I'm gonna do this. So we can say triggers or this or that, but essentially it informs one's perception, and one's perception informs one's response reactions and responses and behaviors, even if they're suboptimal. They they they can only whatever someone's entrenched perception is will inform their behavior. So if they're not aware of it, like if it's unconscious, like what's unconscious can't be controlled. If that root perception is still unconscious, they won't be able to control their respon their reaction to something. So let's here's a here's a simple example that's not like too intense. Like let's say a young like a a young woman maybe didn't get the kind of male attention she needed from her father. And so she developed a suboptimal, like maybe the father left when she was 10 or something. She grows up, etc., but this is still unconscious. But there's that sort of traumatic wound there still of dad abandoned me. So unconsciously, that can translate as men are inherently untrustworthy and I can only rely on myself. So even though as they're getting older, even though the drive to be in relationships will still be there, if she meets a man who's genuinely like open and ready to commit and is quite stable, sometimes she can sometimes she can unconsciously, oh, this guy's really like on paper, he's really good, but I'm not attracted to him. Because unconsciously, she's still wired to feel she's still wired to the chaos.

unknown 16:07

Right.

SPEAKER_02 16:07

And so she she still confuses chaos for attraction. So she can reject a good partner because her nervous system is still wired to the chaos, and or sometimes it gets to a certain point where things are getting close and she's now at a place where she has to open her heart, but because unconsciously she thinks all men are just gonna leave anyway, she'll leave before she gets hurt, so she'll just ditch that one, even though it was going good. But that's her way of protecting herself unconsciously, and then she's like, I don't know why. And if you if it's unconscious, you don't know why. Again, it's a very general example because it's it's hard to say specifically, but the the main point I'm trying principle I'm trying to highlight is a traumatic experience will influence a perception of something, and also within that you can have like, okay, well, he left, so that means that I'm not worthy, so I don't actually deserve someone staying. So even if they want to stay, they're lying, and I don't believe them. So I you're lying to me, so I'm just gonna leave anyway. So the unconscious perception of themselves is I don't deserve the love that this person wants to give to me, so I'm just not going to accept it anyway. And then because but they want the love, so they're upset that they don't have it, but unconsciously they're pushing someone away who wants to share it with them because they haven't actually been able to feel like they deserve it. So it's uh the unconscious perception will influence how they're how they react to certain things. So kind of like software code, it's written in a certain way, and if it's written in a certain way, it can't help but cause a certain reaction of other code coming after it. So it that's how it kind of shows up in the day-to-day, in our daily actions and behaviors. So at the way I describe it is and it's kind of like a chain reaction. Self-perception will influence self-articulation, how we speak about ourselves, and that also cascades and influences our daily actions and what we do. And we also need those to be in alignment for energy to feel like it's flowing through us in a harmonious way. But we can have that we can have that alignment at any stage of consciousness, which is also why you can have really unhealthy, horrible people looking like they're flowing through life pretty well. Because how they're talking about themselves and their daily actions completely line up with how they view themselves as well. This is also why you can have people that are in and out of like really horrendous relationships and just they're clearly a mess. But the way that they're talking about themselves and their daily actions and how they view themselves, that's all literally aligned, and they're not even trying to change it.

SPEAKER_01 18:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:39

Because it's just completely entrenched. Whereas you can have the the you the people that really are kind of like caught in that kind of suffering hamster wheel is when those are not aligned. Like maybe they're talking about they're they're into this stuff, they're trying to study, they're talking about themselves in certain ways, maybe or they're trying different actions and stuff, but it's not shifting. It's because like but their self-perception is still back where it was, even though they're talking about themselves and trying to do better things, but it's not working. They feel like they're going one step forward, two steps back and stuff. That's that's where you get the people that kind of feel like they're caught on that wheel, which is actually more progress than what I mentioned before, because they're actually in the process of changing it, but they just need to get into that self-perception because that's the root of it. That's the root domino that cascades all the way down into the daily actions and the tangible behaviors that get then wired into the nervous system, which become tangibly physiologically habituated. Because, as the law of facilitation states, like any impulse that traverses a set of neurons to the exclusion of others will do so far easier on subsequent occasions. So, what that means is the self-perception we have, which translates into our behaviors, the more we do that behavior as a result of our self-perception, the more that wires into the nervous system and the more habituated that gets in. And so that's also why, like in the whole trauma healing process, the bit that I talked about first

Rewiring Self-Perception Into New Habits

SPEAKER_02 20:05

with the statute is the waking up aspect. But then the phase two is about how once we've woken up and done that mental emotional work, how do we clean that sludge out and then anchor it in and create new habits? So tangibly our nervous system is now in a new habit, and that that's where the rubber hits the road because that can take a while.

SPEAKER_00 20:24

And that's that that's where it hides. I mean, in the kind of normalized discomfort, the things that we have uh told ourselves are just a part of who we are. I mean, the body keeps such detailed records.

SPEAKER_02 20:38

And the and and in that phase two, as you're putting the as you're doing the repetitions of these new habits of like, for example, that example of the woman. And I could have used the the example of a man who like let's say got beat up by bullies at school and was and whenever he's walking down the street and sees like a group of guys with hoods or something, gets just really scared and all the rest of it. Like they they could be any kind of example, but uh like just to keep with that example, let's say the woman's like going in and like, oh, he left, but that doesn't mean that I'm worthless. So now she's now new new dating situation and good healthy guy who actually cares about the feminine and wants to support, and she gets to that point. Oh shit, I gotta open my heart. What if he's gonna leave? Or or do I even deserve to do I even deserve this? Is he too good for me? And then she's like, right, I know that. That's from before. Okay, alright, what am I gonna do? Okay, I do deserve this. Okay, I'm gonna communicate. I'm scared, but okay, I'm gonna first, I'm not gonna run away. I don't know what else I'm gonna do, but at least I'm not gonna do that. Okay, and so you're now starting you're now starting to rewire it, but you need repetitions, and as you're doing that, a lot of that kind of emotional intensity can start to. come out like sometimes and it can come out in various ways and it's interrelated with other things too. Like as these emotional patterns get released, like certain like muscles start muscle fibers start to relax and tension starts to come out and organ systems start to detoxify. And so there's like a physiological purge that can come through in phase two as well. So it's it's it's like a big old cascade that can happen more or less depending on the intensity of what someone has been dealing with but or how tightly they've been resisting something.

SPEAKER_01 22:35

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 22:36

But yeah it's it's that whole holistic picture like we the the root is in that self-perception so we need intangible tools to get in there but then we need to integrate that it with the physiological tools as well to anchor it in. So it's not about one or the other it's about all of them but at the right time and in the right order and understanding their hierarchical relationship as well. Because if you if you just go into say the physiological stuff with say breath work and trying good habits but you haven't got to the self-perception bit it'll keep going back always. Or if you just do the self-perception bit you don't actually tangibly integrate it into new habits you'll keep feeling like your body's fighting you and you it won't feel like it's actually you are actually a new person. So you need both but you need them in the right order.

SPEAKER_00 23:21

I agree I agree.

SPEAKER_02 23:22

So I mean if you have to give any advice to the listeners today what that does the first thing is it this whole process is built on soul connection first. Connect to your soul first that beautiful statue beneath what's happened that's the first thing and it's a very it's very simple to do that to connect you just turn your mind off turn your attention inward and get quiet and then start to slowly speak and just say soul are you there? Let me know if you're there the art the soul is never not there but you can you just have a dialogue like this and then you turn your head off and then you just let the words you feel the words you don't hear them you feel the words rise up and here's the here's the way to tell you'll feel the well words rise up from below your neck. You won't feel them you won't hear them in between your ears. Like soul words come up from below your neck and they're they're a felt sense and there's a lot of like felt loving weight to them. For example if someone's gone through some traumatic experiences and then they they the first thing to do and they think like this is just who I am this is what this is what's happened. I'm I'm irredeemable I'm useless I'm broken I'm this I'm that I'm I'm unlovable I'm that's it the only way is to potentially just think about ending everything. Just get quiet and turn inwards and just say right my soul I I I don't know what else to do. This is what I this is what it feels like. Is that actually true? And they get quiet and usually what will rise up is this felt sense of no Okay. And it will feel so loving and so freeing it'll be it should be like and then you and it'll be like a it'll be like a dam opening up and a river of love start flowing. But like any relationship you need to nurture it. Just the way you just the way you grow a plant not too much water and not too little and just like any relationship you don't want to like you don't just slam someone but not too much not too little and the soul is always there and it's never not been there but it's not going to fight for your attention. It's not going to try and scream and get your attention it doesn't need to it doesn't exist in linear time and it doesn't die as physics tells us energy can't be destroyed it can only be transformed and as the great wisdom traditions of India have taught us and like the traditions of Ramana Mahashi etc and like the the great texts we are a little bit more than just the body yeah so but this whole process that I just explained is definitely a harmony of East and West together like the incredible and just precious contributions from 20th century psychotherapy and psychoanalysis from Freud and Carl Jung etc like Rudolf Steiner's work etc and and just general like behavioral psychologists and developmental psychologists and all of that work but harmonized and integrated with the wisdom traditions of the east and this is also what Paul Czech is so so much a pillar for because he's what's one of the godfathers holistic health and one of the pioneers of bridging

Soul Connection And East West Integration

SPEAKER_02 26:40

the those the the the wisdom traditions of the east and the west to the together in holistic harmony. Like people from my generation of coaches that think in a holistic way like our work is built on the on the shoulders of his contribution along with people like Ken Wilbur etc and a lot of others but and like me as well me as well like just being half Indian and half English too like I've got East and West like running down the center of my entire being like growing up with an Indian grandma doing like doing Reiki when my hand was hurting and talking about yogic breathing and hearing about and growing up hearing about Shiva but also hearing about Christianity and etc having both of those together like that soul connection is the foundation and that soul connection is that aspect of the is that core of the East and then integrating it into samsara through that contribution from the West as well which is inclusive of the nervous system and our nutrition and cellular function etc which obviously the which obviously India has so much of with Ayurveda and breathwork and all the rest of it. So I'm not saying it's just the meditative traditions of of course but there are certain like psychodynamic and psychotherapeutic contributions and developmental contributions from Western traditions which just make what the East have even more whole and better as well. So we need to bring it bring it all together for the not for the sake of saying one's better than the other but for the sake of helping people as fast as possible and in as much of a lasting way as possible. So that would be the f that's the foundational piece of advice connect to your soul. Amazing amazing and that's the first bit and then and then just expand from there and then get support if you need if you really like need to either start with like a free like free thing just start researching yourself or if you feel like you really need some support then get support from someone like myself or another practitioner etc there's nothing there's nothing wrong with that at all. Got it got it and if the listeners want to connect with you how they can connect well the best thing to do would be a start up my website which is jacobmodac.com j-a-c-o-bod.com all my all the information about my uh coaching programs are on there so we've got three different options for the program which is all based around the same the exact same curriculum just the self-study version which is the most sort of accessible one in terms of how in terms of finances time schedule etc because it's just purely self-study that's the most accessible end of the spectrum to start with and then then I have my group program which is the self-study program just a weekly group call where people can ask questions and then I've got my private one-to-one mentorship which is same structure but instead of a group call and the self-study course it's a private call with me per week and that one's like for the people that want to go really really deep specifically if they want to really kind of go through this process but then be like a change maker as well. Like they really whether regardless of what they want to do they want to they they know that what they will be doing will be really informed by their healing journey and they really want to share the lessons in some way and so they really want to dive in and kind of go into a similar depth to me. Not saying they need not saying they want to be coaches or anything like that. Like it's not for me to decide what someone wants to be. It's just the level of depth that they want to go to so that's why I have that available it's not to say it's not saying one's better than the other. I have those three different options so that where wherever someone's at there's a place for them to really start working through this stuff in a really lasting way. So maybe willingness is there time is there etc but maybe financially they just can't that it's it's just not aligned yet to go for the the group program or the mentorship. But £599 British pounds for per month cancel any time for the self-study that's really manageable and they can really dive in and get really stuck into that and then maybe the group program's right for someone else because it's kind of in the middle and then for someone who's kind of uh at a point where they've they can dive in even more then maybe the mentorship's the right thing for them. And I also have my YouTube channel too which is where my free stuff is which is Jacob Modak Coaching. And uh I'll be I've got lots of plans to add to that a lot. So it's a bit it's still fairly basic at the moment but there are two videos on there particularly already which are in-depth session recordings from coaching sessions I've done. One is four hours long and another one's three hours I did those with two amazing women back in 2024 who gave me permission to share the videos publicly and they're full-on coaching sessions in-depth and both of them together that's like seven hours worth of coaching material on the YouTube channel completely free people can watch them get lots out of that so even if they don't people don't want to dive into the programs just yet they could start there and still be getting a lot of

How To Work With Jacob

SPEAKER_02 31:55

really good stuff. And then my Instagram is JacobModak and all the links to that social media stuff's on my website anyway.

SPEAKER_00 32:02

Amazing so dear listeners like uh what I'll do is I'll put all the links details everything into the show notes for easy reference and I'll just say like healing is not just about becoming someone new it is all about kind of remembering who you were before you learned to survive. Right.

SPEAKER_02 32:19

So it's also not the point yeah healing is not the point it's the passageway to the point. Yes and the point is to simply be able to just dance with life in joy regardless of what's happening. Exactly just how like learning how to clean a house is not the point. It's the passageway to the point which is to be able to just have fun in the house because it's clean. Exactly so it's like it's like that too it's not yeah it's not the point. It's the passageway to the point.

SPEAKER_00 32:53

Yeah yeah exactly so thank you so much Jacob for sharing your perspectives and the knowledge it's really really helpful and thank you everyone for being here today and I think sometimes the most important conversations are the ones that don't just promise you an kind of arrival point. They just you know it happens and from today's discussion if something just landed then just be with it. And notice like where it touches something in you the noticing that willingness to see what's been hidden in the plain sight. I mean that's not preparation for the work. That is the work. Right so thank you so much for everyone uh thank you so much everyone for being here and with this this is your host awake and this is Mind Meets Machine I'll just say take care of yourself out there and we'll see you in the next one. Thank you so much.

SPEAKER_01 33:42

Thank you.