When Stillness Starts To Swallow You

SPEAKER_01 0:45

Dearlessness, you know, like there is a certain kind of stillness that can swallow you whole. The kind where sitting becomes sinking, where your thoughts loop into darker patterns, where the weight of everything presses down until moving feels impossible. And yet, what if the very thing that feels hardest, putting one foot in front of the other, is exactly what begins to shift something inside. And today we are exploring like how movement, whether it's running, walking, or simply being present in your body, can become a lifeline when your mind feels like it's drowning. I'm your host, Avik, and you are listening to Mind Meets Machine, where we explore the honest and unhurried truths about living with a healthier mind. And today we have a very lovely

Why Bootstraps Advice Fails

SPEAKER_01 1:40

guest. Please welcome Nita Sweeney. So welcome to the show.

SPEAKER_00 1:43

Hello. I'm really glad to be here and we're gonna talk about one of my favorite topics, movement, and how it helps.

SPEAKER_01 1:51

Amazing. Amazing. Thank you so much, Nita, for being here. And uh dear listeners, like before we get into the discussion, I'll quickly introduce you with Nita. So she's a best-selling wellness author whose work on running meditation and mental health has been featured in the Wall Street Journal. Her memoir, Depression Hates a Moving Target Chronicles, how running with her dog brought her back from the brink. And her latest work explores how every move can become a meditation. I do not want to take much of a time. Let's get started. So, Ida, I mean, like, there's this idea that moving more or kind of starting to exercise is just about discipline or motivation, that you simply need to decide to do it. But for someone who's been in the thick of depression or grief, that framing can feel almost cruel. So, what do you think? I mean, what is the real story about starting to move when your mind is telling you to stay still?

SPEAKER_00 2:55

Well, it usually takes some kind of outside intervention. Uh-huh. For me, it was being glued to the sofa and having and seeing a friend's social media post and then watching her for a while and realizing that I hadn't tried the thing she was doing, which was running, which again, you know, that's my thing, but that doesn't have to be everyone's thing. For some people, it needs to be a challenge. Maybe someone makes a bet with them. Hey, let's, you know, let's see if we can, I don't know, start playing pickleball. I don't know what it would be. But and some people need to have money on the line. So, like, if you don't run a 5K, I'm, you know, I'm betting you 10 bucks and whatever. Yeah. So part of it now that I coach people, what I look for is the way that they are wired. Because for me, the friendship, the fact that I knew this person, that we were about the same age. Um, at that time, we were the same size. You know, I knew she was an athletic. That was important to me because of the way I'm wired. For somebody else, that might not do it. And so I think there's a like a lot of ways, but very few people will be motivated by, you know, the whole pull yourself up by your bootstraps thing. Very few people will find that helpful or be able to respond positively to that. So I think part of it is learning about yourself. But at some point, we given all of that, at some point, there has to be a tiny bit of push from you where your willingness, your desire, your um, you know, this just can't go on-ness, whatever that is, kicks into motion a part of you that says, let's just try this. Let's just try this, but in a very gentle way. Because when you're in the throes of depression, usually your mind is already attacking you left and right and center. It's already my first line of my very first book is my mind was trying to kill me again, because that's what has happened. So um, so I think it's, you know, I hate to say, oh, it depends, but it depends. Um, because what works for me might not work for somebody else. But I promise you, there is a thing that can propel you into that. Uh, it just may not be the thing that you're used to or the thing that you even recognize.

SPEAKER_01 5:29

That's interesting. That's really interesting.

The Messy Start And Loud Inner Voice

SPEAKER_01 5:31

And I mean, when you first started running during that difficult time, what was actually happening in those early moments? Like not the triumph, but the messy, uncomfortable truth of it. So what do you think?

SPEAKER_00 5:45

Yeah, well, my mind was just saying, this is going to kill you. You're too old, you're too fat, it's too late. Why bother? This is just ridiculous. You're you're ridiculous. People are gonna laugh at you. Everybody already thinks you're ridiculous, and now they're gonna laugh even more. I mean, it was just really the screaming, but there was that other part of me that knew I wanted a change, that knew that I just had to try something, and it felt like I'd tried everything else. And so I had to kind of be at that wall. And so I I said to that part of me that was screaming, I said, now hang on, just just stick with me here for a minute and let me try this thing. And if it fails, then you were right, and we can go back to you beating the crap out of me. But just just step aside for just a second and let me try this thing. And and that's the part that I think people sometimes have difficulty locating inside themselves. It's there, but they're so used to paying attention to a lot of societal norms and their own inner voice that's like chat, you know, chanting loser, loser, loser kind of thing. And especially with depression, because you got it, this is a biochemical thing. This is not willpower. This is not you choosing these things at all. It's uh it's really, you know, you're kind of fighting your own biochemistry. But the the beautiful thing is that once you do get in motion, the voices will calm calm down. They'll still be there, but they will calm down. And uh and you'll be able to say, see, I was right after all. Or Nita was right, and Avik was right.

SPEAKER_01 7:27

Yeah, exactly. So I mean obviously I think that's uh I mean that's what like we miss when we talk about uh the movement and the mental health, and we focus on the last or the finest line, the transformation, but we skip over the part where you are just trying to kind of get through the next 30 seconds, like yeah. So yeah, I mean that's where the real work uh actually lives.

SPEAKER_00 7:54

Well, and I think the other thing is is people try the wrong things. So I didn't I I just thought running was punishment. I really did. I thought it was, you know, there's the joke that my sport is your sport's punishment. Like if you don't, you know, make the goal, then you have to run five laps or whatever. But uh but for me, it's it's perfect. So for someone else, it might be a different form of movement, something, you know, really gentle. So part of it is not only being able to push back a little bit on that part of you that is just shouting about, you know, what a loser you are, but it's also finding a movement that suits you. Because the idea is not, oh, I'm gonna do this thing once and I'll be cured. The idea is that this is going to become something I love so that it will become a part of your life, but not through the horrendous effort that it seems like it needs to be. Now, do I still have mornings where I do not want to go out? Absolutely. And will I always? Yes. But I have enough evidence of how wonderful it is when I actually am on the other side that that, you know, compensates. But yeah, finding, you know, the thing that uh that just lights you up and being willing to try enough things until you find one that you enjoy. And and I don't, I'm I'm not sure people always have the stamina for that. And that could be because of the mental health issues, also. But so my my mantra, if I have one, is just stay in there, you know, just stay in there and uh and let the results show you. But sometimes you have to kind of force yourself to stay in there with a little bit of effort that we really want this all to be effortless. Most of us do. We just really want it to be like a magic and flip a switch. And it's not like that, and it's not gonna be, but it for me, it still beats the alternative because that was miserable. That place of horrible depression was so miserable. And so now when I have to give myself that little push, I have the proof that yes, in fact, this can make a difference.

SPEAKER_01 10:01

Exactly.

Tiny Goals That Build Momentum

SPEAKER_01 10:03

So, like you have written, like how about about how depression has patterns, ways it keeps score, ways it convinces us of things that are not quite true. So, what are the deeper patterns you have noticed, like the ones that keep people stuck, even when they know I mean movement might help? So, what do you have to say?

SPEAKER_00 10:29

It's usually a physical sensation of heaviness that for me, I should probably just talk for myself. I've talked to a lot, I mean, I do coach people, so I've talked to a lot of poke people that have this same thing, where you feel as if um you're just weighted down and you're unable to to make yourself move. And that along with the mental messages of, oh, this isn't gonna work either. You know, I'm not I'm not the one to do this. Who do I think I am? That's another big one I get. Who do I who do you think you are? Who do you think you are? And and so again, we have to just take a tiny step because when you're in the throes of a depressive episode, sometimes just showering is overwhelming. And so, so what I'm suggesting, I started with 60 seconds of jogging. I literally had a timer, like a little, like one of these little kitchen timers like this. I had one like that. And that started with 60 seconds of jogging and then, you know, I did a a couple of minutes, I think it was I think it was 60 seconds of jogging and then two minutes of walking or something like that. And you did that for, I don't know, 10 minutes or something like that. I don't I've it's been a long time ago, so I've forgotten. But uh but making it so easy that you can't fail. So you choose just the tiniest goal. And that way when you do have a success that builds on um, you know, that that builds momentum over time. Because those those uh inner voices are very ingrained, their brain patterns that have to be kind of re rerouted. And the only way to do that is through uh I mean therapy can help with that, but often it's proving to yourself that you can do this thing. And so those those simple actions, that's what works for me, is for me, it's and sometimes it's just just put on your running clothes. I know you're still in the house, but just just put on your clothes and see what happens. And then the next step is just go outside, just stand outside and see what happens. And then usually then I'm thinking that the neighbors are la wondering why the heck I'm just standing outside my running clothes and then I end up kind of taking off. But uh but I think it's very personal. That's why having you know, I'm I'm I keep talking about coaching, it doesn't have to be with me, but having a therapist or a friend or um, you know, a running group or some kind of group, like there's groups for every form of activity, every one, where other people can tell you what they do that's very specific to the movement form you're trying. If you want to walk, I suggest getting a dog because the dog will look at you, it will stare at you with those soft, sweet eyes until you pick up the leash and take it outside. So, uh, so yeah, finding those little things. And again, just small things really can make, I mean, for me, it made a huge difference, it has made a huge difference.

External Reasons That Get You Moving

SPEAKER_00 13:33

And then I I'm gonna pivot actually my most recent book. I'm not sure I've updated my bio enough, but I played golf with my father. And that's not something I necessarily wanted to do. I'm a horrible golfer, but he had been diagnosed with cancer and was not, you know, was not given a lot of time. And and it was gonna be a challenge to like meet him, to have to drive the places I went. But that was the motivation. I wanted to be with him. And so that motivation of something besides my depression, besides, you know, something to to kind of counteract those voices, kind of pulled me toward, pulled me toward the activity. And that's what I'm trying to say is that you need you often need something external because especially when you're in a horrible depressive episode, the internal stuff is just not helpful. It's not helpful. And so the friend, the challenge, the bet, you know, maybe the charity, sometimes that gets people going if there's, you know, like a charity golf outing or a charity race or a charity tournament for if you play a racket sport, something like that, where it gets you, it just sort of circumvents that wiring that's just saying, Oh, you can't do this. This is too hard. This is too hard. And you have to short circuit that somehow. And that's where often when we're in the depressive episode, we can't figure that out ourselves. We need the help of a medical, a mental health professional or a coach or a trainer or someone else who is not gonna shame us, is not gonna, you know, push us too hard, but is gonna help us find something that's like a it's like a key. That's like there's a lock and you need the key and you're missing the key.

Chunk It Down And Close

SPEAKER_01 15:17

So if you have to give one advice to the listeners today, what will you look at?

SPEAKER_00 15:21

I would say chunk it down. So if you're thinking about anything, making a phone call, uh getting out the door, you know, answering an email, anything that you need to do, literally anything you need to do, don't think of it in terms of the whole thing, but chunk it down into these small, tiny steps, and then just do the one thing. So let's say you need to make a phone call. The first thing you need to do is find the number. Where what's the piece, where's the piece of paper or the email or the, you know, is it in my phone? Find the number first and then take a breath. And then, you know, pick up your phone and then take a breath and then dial the number, take your breath, and then hit the green button, take your breath, you know, like like literally just chunk it down into the most actionable, easy steps you can because we're just so easily overwhelmed.

SPEAKER_01 16:09

True. So if listeners wants to connect with you, how they can connect?

SPEAKER_00 16:14

Well, the best place is my website because social media, I'm all over social media, but it's so unreliable and unpredictable. So NitaSweeney.com is my website. All of my books are there, my coaching services, I do public speaking, events, things like that. Yeah, nitasweenie.com. And it's just my name, N-I-T-A-S-W-E-E-N-E-Y.com. Amazing.

SPEAKER_01 16:37

So the listeners, what I'll do is I'll put all the links, details, everything into the show notes for your easy reference so that you can easily reach out to Nita. And I'll just say, you know, like sometimes the way forward is not about thinking your way out, but you're moving your way through one imperfect step at a time. So with this, I'll say, like, thank you so much for listening, everyone, and thank you so much for being here. I hope that you carry this with you, that the movement doesn't uh have to be a kind of dramatic or perfect to matter. It just has to be the honest one. Walk around the block, few breaths taken consciously, like Nita already mentioned at the end, right? It's uh and a moment where you notice like what it feels like to be in your body instead of only in your mind or head, right? That's enough. So that's that that's always been enough. So I'll just say this is your whole servicing, this is Nine Meets Machine. Take good care and I'll meet you in the next one. Thank you so much.